|
Post by diane on Jan 5, 2009 11:52:44 GMT -5
I had not said the tiger had a throat grip, so why mention it? i only thought perhaps some skin instead of hair, but it still makes no difference to what i was posting about. You said yourself in your other post-The grip was good and the lion was trapped. The grip was good and the lion was trapped. Im not interested in who would of won the fight if the water hose was not used. I posted to show schamah123 was wrong for saying- Lion had the Tiger under its control. I said the tiger had the lion under control at the end, and you said the lion was trapped. We are saying the same thing, just different words, so if im wrong, so are you.
|
|
|
Post by Lion Boss on Jan 5, 2009 12:35:47 GMT -5
Using a "perhaps" in an argument is not the best way to go.
Yes, but you are taking it out of context. The lion could not get up, very true. But at the same time the tiger was not doing ANY damage to the lion nor was he in the position to do anything besides maintaing the stalemate. The lion quickly got up once the water separated the two, that clearly shows that the tiger did no damage with his grip. The "control" you speak of was not hurting the lion, it was merely keeping the lion from hurting the tiger.
Nor should you be since we can only discuss what is shown.
He was just as wrong as you were in your definition of control. The lion was constantly on the offensive through the match. If they were not in the cage, the tiger would have ran off, just as he attempted to several times in the bout. To Shamah that could be the definition of control. The lion controlled the pace of the match and kept on the offensive.
Yes, I'm right and you are not. The tiger did not have the lion under control. The lion was trapped, but so was the tiger. The tiger was NOT in any position to do ANYTHING besides restraining the lion. He could do no damage nor gain any advantage from his position. He got a hold of the lion's hair and brought the fight to a standstill. That is not "under control". Under control would mean that the tiger was in a position to finish the lion off at any point. That was not the case. Even without the intervention, he would've had to release the grip on the hair eventually and the match would've resumed. Simple as that.
No, we are not saying the same thing. And I'm right and you are wrong. Tiger was not in control. If he was, the lion would be dead. The lion was, in fact, trapped, but so was the tiger. As I said earlier, the tiger could do NOTHING more in his position than to maintain the stalemate that did no damage to the lion.
|
|
|
Post by diane on Jan 5, 2009 13:38:08 GMT -5
Thats all i was meaning when i said "control"
I never said he was.
I never said he did
Not really, the word "control" could also be used for your words- "The lion could not get up" that is sort of saying control. No matter if i use the word "control" or you use the words "The lion could not get up" or your other words "The grip was good and the lion was trapped" It all means the same and schamah123 was wrong.
Not really, you can have control without resulting in injury or death.
No matter which words we both use, we are still talking about the same thing, which is- schamah123 was wrong for saying- Lion had the Tiger under its control.
|
|
|
Post by Lion Boss on Jan 5, 2009 13:47:05 GMT -5
Well, is he talking about the ending or the overall fight? If we're talkinga bout the overall fight the lion was controlling the pace and was, in fact, in control of the fight. Yes, the tiger did manage to bring it to stalemate, but since it was not offensive the fight would've continued. So, if he was talking about the ending, no, the lion was not in control. If we're talking about the overall fight, yes, the lion did control the pace of the fight.
|
|
|
Post by diane on Jan 5, 2009 17:35:25 GMT -5
And thats all i was getting at. And i posted the full version of the fight to show the real ending. That was the purpose of my first post, and using "Your Words" i will finish with this below- That water at the end really did save the lion. The grip was good and the lion was trapped.
|
|
|
Post by Lion Boss on Jan 6, 2009 13:22:30 GMT -5
Well, that comment was directed at a pro-lion poster. The lion was trapped, no question. But I stand by what I said about the tiger. The tiger was trapped as well not being in a position to do anything besides maintaing the stalemate.
|
|
|
Post by diane on Jan 6, 2009 22:08:47 GMT -5
Im not the slightest bit interested in what may or may not have happened if the fight continued. The only reason for all my posts was about the end of the full version. And so you dont think im using the wrong words again about my thoughts of the fight end "from what we see" I will use "your words" again below. That water at the end really did save the lion. The grip was good and the lion was trapped. I stand by what I wrote.
|
|
|
Post by Lion Boss on Jan 7, 2009 12:34:15 GMT -5
Whatever. You got some serious issues, lady. Fight hard to prove something so meaningless to someone that doesn't even post here anymore. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
Oh, and nice job with your selective quoting. People like you epitimize the concept of meaningless internet debates.
This:
doesn't prove you right, not in the least. First of all, it was my opinion. Second of all, I went on the record to EXPAND that statment in regards to the tiger's position in that situation. But, conviniently, you choose to omit that.
Thank you for your 7 posts of meaningless nonsese and pointless arguing. I "can't wait" to read the 8th.
|
|
|
Post by boldchamp on Jan 25, 2009 3:20:47 GMT -5
in the big cage fight, according to beatty, the lion won. beatty states that in a fight between a lion and a tiger, the striped cat invariably tries to escape, while the lion quite frequently initiates the battle. we can see the lion chasing the tiger in the big cage fight several times during the struggle.
you should also note that the entire fight was not shown, and it was edited to make the battle appear closer than it was, and several scenes were often re-shown, often from different angles.
one of the defenses of the mane of the lion is to deter attackers. the tiger may, in choosing to attack, misjudge the distance, and, instead of biting the neck, as intended, gets a mouthful of mane. also, the otter hairs of the mane are quite easily pulled put, allowing a sustained grip upon this area nearly impossible. likewise, the wiry bush may snag the tiger`s paws, preventing an effective attack on the part of the tiger.
in the film, we see that the tiger, in attempting to bite the neck of the lion, and possibly end the struggle, only grabs a mouthful of mane, which does little damage and of which the tiger would soon tire, if the fight should continue much further.
beatty has also stated that the tiger often becomes 'paw weary' where he dishes out a flurry of blows, in quick succession. for this very reason, the tiger, according to beatty, misses more often than the lion. by that same token, he leaves himself open more so than the lion.
|
|
|
Post by firestone on Feb 22, 2009 19:36:01 GMT -5
The gir lion tiger fight, the tiger was forced to fight and put up a DAM good fight,but the lion eventually killed the tiger.
|
|
|
Post by firestone on May 12, 2009 0:02:37 GMT -5
Lion Boss,when the water cannon sprayed both lion and tiger,the lion was not in danger,On youtube look at Schamah,lionOWNtiger,and JianLiFeh videos on this.Actually the lion had the tiger's forelimb in his mouth,the tiger had the lion's mane not his throat as tiger fans have tried to say.The mane of a lion is his armour.WILD TIGERS AND TAME FLEAS 1958 By Bill Ballantine.Page 82,the lion's armour like mane.TIGER THE STORY OF THE INDIAN TIGER 1977 by Kailash Sankhala.Page 119 Sankhala a TIGER EXPERT,in a fight the tiger would be at a disadvantage because the lion has a mane that covers his throat,the tiger don't have this protection.Sankhala favored a lion over a tiger based on the gir lion tiger fight in which a asian lion defeated a bengal tiger.LIONS N TIGERS N EVERTHING 1924 By Courtney Ryley Cooper.Pages 68-70,the tiger's claws got snagged on the lions ARMOUR LIKE MANE,the lion was able to strike with his claws unrestricted,the lion went on to kill the tiger.On youtube look at Schamah's video The lion's mane,there's a ZOOLOLIGIST who says the lion's mane is battle armour.There you have it four documented sources the say the lion's mane is like unto armour.Thus the lion was not a danger when the water cannon was shot to separate both the lion and tiger.Like I said the tiger had the lion's mane not his throat.The tiger had the lion's mane,which is the lion's armour,the lion had the tiger's forelimb,had the water not been sprayed on both big cats the lion would have bit down hard on the tiger's forelimb and broke or severely fractured the tiger's forelimb,and believe me the tiger would have definately let go of the lion's mane and the lion would have went on to completely defeat or kill the tiger.On youtube type in the box Gir lion tiger pit fight 1946.Clyde Beatty,Dave Hoover,Courtney Ryley Cooper ( Cooper grudgingly for Cooper was a tiger fan ) ALL 3 famed big cat circus trainers who where in the cage with both big cats,and were EYEWITNESSES to lion tiger fights ALL 3 favored a lion over a tiger.Some circus animal trainers don't say outright the lion dominates the tiger,but they dropped hints.MY WILD LIFE 1975 by Jim Chipperfield.Page 57,for NO tiger enjoys the kind of rough-house on which a lion THRIVES:He needs altogether MORE DELICATE handling.If the lion is the carthorse of the big cats,the tiger is the thoroughbred.In otherwords a carthorse is a tough hardy work horse,a thoroughbred is not good for work,all a throughbred is good for is racing,jumping and hunting.The lion is tough and hardy ,the tiger is fragile and delicate.TIGER ! TIGER ! 1975 By Charlie Baumann.Page 125,Baumann is a tiger fan.Page 102 lions and tigers,I've never figured out the wins and defeats in their often power struggles.Also on page 102 Two big lions Enir and Said are feared by ALL THE ANIMALS ( tigers included ) in Charley's compound.Charley DOESN"T MENTION any tigers being feared by ALL THE ANIMALS on the compound,just two lions.Page 128 changing from lion training to tiger training is like going from drums to a violin.Charley likens lions to drums and tigers to violins.Now what do you think Charley is really trying to say ? What do you think Charley is hinting at ? Sounds to me Charley is hinting to lion is the more dominate big cat.GIFT FOR THE AGES 2000 By Siegfried and Roy.This book doesn't have page numbers,instead the book has page headings.If you were to ask Siegfried and Roy who would win lion vs. tiger,they'd ask you why do you want to know that ? Are you concerned about the conservation of both big cats ? However Roy did give a hint.Take in mind that you see Siggy and Roy showcasing with their white tigers more than their white lions.Yes Siggy and Roy SLIGHTLY like their tigers more than their lions.Page Heading,FORGING A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP The personality traits of lions and tigers are very different. A lion is TOUGH,Roy explained. A tiger is very versatile,very flexible,also forgiving.When you have a confrontation with him,he's a lot quicker to forgive whatever the situation is than a lion.The lion forgets nothing,and he will make sure you understand that.Notice The lion is TOUGH explained Roy.PERIOD. not that the lion is hard to get along with,or harder to train,Roy said the lion is TOUGH PEROID !! But Roy doesn't say this about the tiger.The USUAL meanings of versatile and flexible is multifaceted,multitalented,able to do various tasks.One of the MINOR meanings of versatile and flexible is easily swayed,willing to yield to the influence of others.In otherwords the lion is tough and stands his ground and doesn't back down from the tiger.The tiger on the otherhand is easily swayed or intimidated by the lion,and the tiger backs down,submits,or retreat from the lion.Now what do you think Roy is really trying to say ? What do you think Roy is HINTING at ? Sounds to me Roy is hinting of lion domanance.By the way Lion Boss there is virtually no chance of lions and tigers meeting in the wild because of different habitats.Thus the only place where lions and tiger come into CONSTANT CONTACT is in circuses with MIXED lion tiger acts.Thus the captive account is the only accounts we can go by.Three famed big cat circus trainers with mixed lion tiger acts,and were EYEWITNESS to lion tiger fights, Clyde Beatty,Dave Hoover,and Courtney Ryley Cooper ALL favored a lion over a tiger.Kailash Sankhala a TIGER EXPERT favors a lion over a tiger.Other famed big cat circus trainers Jim Chipperfield,Charley Baumann,Siegfried and Roy hinted of lion superiority in fighting over a tiger.
|
|
|
Post by MellivoraCapensis42 on Dec 29, 2010 18:37:08 GMT -5
Really? Alright then, let's put this to the test. Assume that the fight occurs in a forested area. The fight continiues until the tiger retreats into a dried up streambed, where he is cornered. Thus, he lashes out with extraordinary ferocity. The lion realizes he is in a fight for his life. Do you honestly think that he will not change tactics and start going for the kill? And in such an instance, would not his fighting style, which naturally has greater potential to injure, maim, or kill than that of the tiger, allow him to win? In my view, it all depends on whether he sees the tiger as a pride-mate or a genuine threat to his pride. If he sees him as a pride-mate, he would likely merely desire to establish dominance, in which case he would indeed be less likely to win a fight to the death. But if he sees the tiger as a threat to his pride, he will take the fight to the tiger and kill his adversary.
|
|
|
Post by MellivoraCapensis42 on Dec 29, 2010 18:43:37 GMT -5
The gir lion tiger fight, the tiger was forced to fight and put up a DAM good fight,but the lion eventually killed the tiger. That could be said of pretty much all footage we have on lion vs tiger. The lion typically wins. There is the occasional tiger victory or, as with the big cage fight, a stalemate, but those aren't exactly the norm. But that doesn't change the fact that the tiger often fights valiantly. Perhaps not with the lion's courage, but certainly as the worthy adversary he is.
|
|
|
Post by anhvan58 on Jun 7, 2011 14:57:51 GMT -5
I'm very interested in your arguments. And here are mine:
Firstly, in the Big Cage good quality version, at the end, the tiger arm was not in the lion mouth. In fact, the tiger hold the tiger head by his arms, jaw and keep it on the ground. I don't know if the tiger can do any damage or not, but It's clear that those tiger (in this film) know only one tactic: target the enemy's throat, and of course, it's the bad tactic against lion. But to be honest, both those lion and tigers are tame animal, their fighting ability can't be like in wild, but the mane's merit still remain, that makes a very big advantage.
Secondly, I agree with Lion boss with many points in your first post, but these: - I think tiger is as willing to fight as lion. It depend on what that tiger or lion think of their position (is he more powerful than the opponent? Is it necessary to fight or not? Is it his territory or not) so they choose to fight or to retreat. - Lion is more to be deadly than tiger in their wild life. Male lion is usually bloodthirsty. I saw (on TV) three male lion patrol when the night comes and kill a wounded female can not follow her family. In fact, lion is easier to go for the kill if he see it's easy and give up if it's not, not just to prove his dominance. And tiger, they try to protect his territory with the least cost of blood, their deadly weapons are for the hunt, and he make a quick estimate about his enemy then make his move, not like lion, they give it a few real shoot before giving up. That's why you think tiger doesn't want to fight
Thirdly, as we can see, tiger is more agile and accurate than lion (that's why we all see tiger hold lion mane at the beginning) because he hunt everyday but the lion takes very big advantage with their mane. Beside, lion fight against their own kind more frequently, so he have more tactics than tiger, and he can try them many times without afraid of being killed too soon upon his amour.
So in my opinion, if they face off in wild, the tiger will give up quickly and get away if it's not his territory or drive the lion back if it is. And if they have to kill each other to survive (of course in wild) lion will kill tigers as long as they try to bit his throat. But when they face off more frequently in their wild life, I believe that tiger will learn how to defeat lion, just like male lions when they kill each other, then tiger's agility and accuracy will be the key for their revenge.
|
|