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Post by Lion Boss on Nov 17, 2008 16:32:42 GMT -5
 Commonly the Siberian tiger is referred to as the largest of all cats. However, past measurements of this cat where based on hunter estimates and can not be varified. The Siberian Tiger project, started in 1992, paints a VERY different picture. Since 1992 the largest Siberian tiger weighed in the wild was 215 kg (474 lbs) - Source: Prynn, David (2002). Amur tiger. Russian Nature Press. According to modern research of wild Siberian tigers in Sikhote-Alin, an average adult male tiger (>35 months) weighs 167.3 - 185.7 kg and an adult tigress - 117.9 - 122.6 kg, respectively. - Source: Miquelle, D.G., Smirnov, E.N., Goodrich, J.M. (2005). Tigers of Sikhote-Alin Zapovednik: ecology and conservation. Vladivostok, Russia: PSP, 25-35. So the confirmed averages are 368 - 409 lbs with the highest found to be 474 lbs. DONE! There is the officially measured and documented Siberian Tiger research. As you can see, the Siberian Tiger is not larger than the lion. Wild speciment AVERAGES have been documented around 170 kg in East Africa and 180 kg in South Africa with some big ones at 225 kg ( Source: Alan Turner & Mauricio Anton). The measured averages are the same, 170 - 180 kg with the highest foundings at around 220 kg. Conclusion: African Lion and Siberian Tiger are the same size. |
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Post by bigcats on Nov 19, 2008 0:35:20 GMT -5
According to modern research of wild Siberian tigers in Sikhote-Alin, an average adult male tiger (>35 months) weighs 167.3 - 185.7 kg and an adult tigress - 117.9 - 122.6 kg, respectively. - Source: Miquelle, D.G., Smirnov, E.N., Goodrich, J.M. (2005). Tigers of Sikhote-Alin Zapovednik: ecology and conservation. Vladivostok, Russia: PSP, 25-35. So the confirmed averages are 368 - 409 lbs Conclusion: African Lion and Siberian Tiger are the same size. At 35 months their skeleton is full grown, but tigers increase in weight until 4-5 years or even a bit longer. Therefore, your source cannot be used to give the average weight of Amurs that have reached their full weight. Miquelle`s email below gives a fuller picture of those they have weighed, and Miquelle (the Siberian Tiger Project coordinator) says the average is about 430 lbs (195 kg) I can forward the original to anyone who wants to see it.  |
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Post by Lion Boss on Nov 19, 2008 0:45:08 GMT -5
Don't bother. I emailed him myself with those EXACT words and he confirmed them.  |
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Post by bigcats on Nov 19, 2008 8:32:05 GMT -5
Before you emailed Miquelle, i already agreed (on the other forum)...... at 35 months they weigh about what your source says.
Therefore.... your email only confirms what i already agreed too regarding weights at 35 months. (i agreed to that before you emailed him)
However.... Miquelle`s email to me confirms they average about 430 lbs (195 kg).
You cannot compare the weights of those at 35 months, too those at 4-5 years, because they continue to increase in weight until about that age.
Your email is only referring to those around 35 months.
On the other forum you posted "your question" to Miquelle, therefore, that is why i know what he was replying too.
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Post by Lion Boss on Nov 19, 2008 9:46:51 GMT -5
Whatever! Guys like you TOTALLY missed the whole point on this! The entire purpose here was to prove that Siberian Tigers and African Lions are the same size, and they are.
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Post by bigcats on Nov 19, 2008 12:10:17 GMT -5
So the confirmed averages are 368 - 409 lbs Your quote above is clearly wrong. They average 430 lbs (195 kg) according to Miquelle. Siberian Tigers and African Lions are the same size, and they are. Ive not weighed any wild cats, therefore, i cannot comment. However, i can regarding captive cats. According to the "data sets" from the EEP coordinator...about 60% of male Siberian tigers in the EEP weigh between 480-500 lbs, and about 30% are close to 400 lbs. Most (not all) captive male lions are close to 400-420 lbs. Most good zoos try and give the right amount of food to their cats, therefore, this seems to suggest the wild Siberian population is not finding the right amount of prey. Far more captive cats have been weighed compared to their wild counterparts, and most EEP siberians are the correct weight for their size, and so are the lions. Based on what happens in zoos.....if wild Siberians found more prey they would most likely have a higher average weight than their present average of 430 lbs. In zoos.... lions and tigers are given about the same amount of meat, but captive Siberians often weigh more than captive lions. Our male Siberian is between 492-504 lb (i weigh the cats about twice a year) He is considered normal for a captive, and you can see from the photo below he is not fat. Our male lion is between 398-407 lbs. Our cats are good representations of many normal zoo cats. If wild siberians found the same amount of prey as lions, the siberians would weigh more than their present average.  |
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Post by Lion Boss on Nov 19, 2008 13:24:21 GMT -5
No, just stop right there. You weight two cats and base your evaluations on that. Gimme a break! Individuals vary. African lion studies have confirmed about 170 kg average for East African and 180-190 kg for South African with 225 as the largest.
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Post by bigcats on Nov 19, 2008 21:01:06 GMT -5
I was NOT basing it on our two cats!
If you read my last post.... you will see i based it on the EEP Tiger coordinator who
sent us "data sets" which say....
about 60% of male Amurs in the EEP program weigh around 480-500 lbs, and about 30% around 400 lbs
Thats why i said.....our male Amur is a normal zoo weight at 492-504 lb
I have weighed several zoo cats over the years, but i based my info on the data sets, and that info is based on MANY Amur tigers in the EEP.
African Lions are not on any breeding program (most are hybrid).
However, due to my job... we have other info that says.... many (not all) male lions in zoos are around 400-420 lbs.
Our male lion falls into the weight range for many zoo lions, he weighs 398-407 lbs.
I only said our cats are good representations because they fall into the weight range of most (not all) zoo cats.
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ash
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Post by ash on Jan 12, 2009 14:47:36 GMT -5
I won't say amur tigers and african lions are the same size. According to all the researches you mentioned studying modern day amur's. 167.3 - 185.7 kg was all they were able to verify on the average siberian tiger. Siberian tiger's a couple of years ago are supposed to be heavier. However, due to the big genetic problem these tigers have had since the last few years this being the result of overhunting by impoverished locals, low prey availablity and so on, 215kg now makes the upper weight echelon of the tiger.
Considering the average african lion comes in at 185-195 kg (excluding the larger Ngorongoro crater lions), i don't think a wild amur would fair well against a lion.
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Post by Lion Boss on Jan 12, 2009 16:26:50 GMT -5
If anyone here gets a chance, watch "Lions Feeding Frenzy" on Animal Planet. The night time feeding was EXTREME. After watching that I have no doubt that no tiger could EVER live in the same area as wild lions. A hungry pride of lions is a scary sight and NOTHING is safe, not even an elephant.
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ash
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Post by ash on Jan 19, 2009 3:56:47 GMT -5
Uh...bigcats,, the average adult male tiger, at 3 years, weigh in at 167-185 kg. Compared with the average adult male lion, they have a 10-13 kg dissadvantadge. Both species grow heavier with age, after 3 years siberian tiger's aren't in their prime, so that is bad comparison.
and i dissagree with the notion that the modern version P.t.alactica isn't to be compared with lion's since around 20 years earlier they were bigger. I could easily argue that IF P.l.spelea or P.l.artox still existed, they'd crush any tiger with little difficulty.
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Post by bigcats on Jan 22, 2009 15:53:31 GMT -5
after 3 years siberian tiger's aren't in their prime, They are still in their prime at 5 year old. Infact, i dont even start breeding my tigers or lions until at least 4 years old. This photo is of my present Amur when he was 9 year old, and you can see he still had good muscle tone, he weighs 492-504 lb Even though ive been looking after big cats for over 18 years...i still weigh all my cats about twice a year, mainly for diet needs. You may think after all those years i should be able to guess their weight, but ive found its best to keep weighing them to make sure. p.s. Im not saying a wild 9 year old would still be in his prime. |
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ash
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Post by ash on Jan 23, 2009 15:36:30 GMT -5
Iam not saying i have more experiance on these two species than you do, but in order for this to be a fair comparison, you'll need to bring the average adult male tiger and lion.
A 5 year old amur tiger (or a, let's say, 9 year old african lion) aren't an average. Otherwise that tottaly defeats the purpose of comparison.
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Post by bigcats on Jan 23, 2009 20:44:23 GMT -5
Iam not saying i have more experiance on these two species than you do, but in order for this to be a fair comparison, you'll need to bring the average adult male tiger and lion. A 5 year old amur tiger (or a, let's say, 9 year old african lion) aren't an average. Otherwise that tottaly defeats the purpose of comparison. A 5 year old amur tiger is in his prime, and according to Dale Miquelle.... males average 430 lbs (195 kg) I dont have any communication with people studying wild lions, therefore, i cannot comment on weights of wild lions. However, i do have email contact with Dale Miquelle because we are part of the ALTA (Amur Leopard and Tiger Alliance). I can comment regarding the captive populations.... my Amur tigers are part of the EEP breeding program, and according to the "Data Sets" we are sent from the coordinator.... about 60% of male Amurs are close to 480-500 lbs, and about 30% close to 400 lbs. Captive Amurs often outweigh their wild counterparts by 50-100 lbs. We dont have "Data Sets" for African lions because they are not on any breeding programs like the EEP, SSP, infact most are hybrid, but we do have other info that says....most (not all) captive African male lions are close to 400-420 lbs. |
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Post by Lion Boss on Jan 24, 2009 16:00:27 GMT -5
So looking at the numbers your providing here, we captive Siberians are basically 450 to 500 lbs in weight. And the wild counterparts are 50 to 100 lbs lighter. That would make wild Siberians tigers only about 350 - 450 lbs in weight. That's a lot lower than a lot of places that list the cat at 600 to 700 lbs for wild speciments.
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