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Post by Lion Boss on Nov 3, 2008 17:42:49 GMT -5
In various topics around the web I've noticed that many people seem to think that the tiger is this stuper predator that can take down anything in it's path. So, I decided to take the various records that were presented by tiger fans and expose the myths behind the striped cat. In the above chart you see the animals that are documented as the main source of food for tigers. So let's take a look at som of them: Sambar: This deer is by far the favorite animal for tigers to hunt. They weigh 162-260 kg (357-574 lbs). Chital: Another favorite deer, weighs about 85 kg (187 lbs). Montjac: And even smaller deer, weighs 18 - 21 kg (40 - 46 lb). Pig/boar: These vary from as small as 60 kg to as large as 300 kg (660 lbs). Red Deer: Been found up to 500 kg (1,100 lbs). So, as we can see, the tiger usually prefers small to medium size prey. Some of the deer that they target can, indeed be very large. But according to the data, Sambar is the most frequently targeted prey. By comparison, lions typically target the Wilderbeast (550 lbs) and Zebra (650+ lbs). Young and sub-adult girraffes are freqently taken as well (adults are over 3,000 lbs, so the younger ones are around the 1,000 lbs mark). Conclusion #1: The common prey for both cats is almost EXACTLY the same size! Sambar/Boar/Wilderbeast/Zebra and the Red Deer/Giraffe are really the same thing. The only reason lions hunt in groups is due to the size of the herds and the open terrain of Africa. GAUR HuntingAs you can tell, in India it shows that the Gaur is a very favorable prey item. However, common misconseptions say that that tigers kill "3,300 lb bulls". Adult Gaurs can weigh up to 1,000 kg and have been documented killing tigers. A study has confirmed that tigers, in fact, target the young Gaurs more frequently. Much as lions try to avoid going after Cape Buffalo bulls, the tiger is very much the same way. Below you see a description of what I'm talking about: Conclusion #2: It's very important to remember that when saying that the Gaur is part of the tiger's diet you mention that it's not always adults. Further more, adult gaurs weight up to 1,000 kg and not the 3,300 lbs (1,500 kg) myths. By comparison, the Cape Buffalo targeted by lions (and records of solo kills and adults are documented) weighs 800-900 kg. So, there really isn't much of a difference in that respect. Research data confirms this. Here are some existing photos of the tiger with a gaur kill. None really show a full grown bull (final pic for reference). Gaur Bull - 12 ft long, 1.9 m at the shoulder and over 3,000 lbs.
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Post by Panthera on Nov 3, 2008 22:29:52 GMT -5
Conclusion #2: It's very important to remember that when saying that the Gaur is part of the tiger's diet you mention that it's the young Gaur. Adults, especially bulls, would be a rare and extreme case. Tigers killing such animals is about as common as lions killing full grown hippos. It happens, but it's certainly not a common trend. Research data confirms this. You're wrong. Tigers have been known to kill adult elephants and indian rhinoceros. I love rhinoceros as well as I do tigers I think that's the most impressive feat of predation to kill a greater one horned rhinoceros. Tigers are very fond of gaur meat especially in nagarhole. And comparing gaur to hippos is ludicrous a big gaur is 2500lbs at max size whilst a big bull hippo can weigh 6000lbs too 7000lbs. Gaur's sizes are seriously overstated. But it is pretty damn impressive to prey on them. Again my references to the gaur/tiger/nagarhole. From Wild Cats of the World by Mel and Fiona Sunquist. Gaur weight:700-1000 kg / 1540-2200 lb. Source
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Post by Lion Boss on Nov 4, 2008 0:41:44 GMT -5
I said that tigers target young gaurs and smaller adults. Which, in case you don't know gaurs, still qualify as large prey. Full grown gaur bulls weigh over 3,000 lbs. FACT. You showed me proof that tigers targeted gaurs at 1,000 kg. That's not a full grown bull. It's an adult, likely a cow, but not a full grown bull. As for the hippo comment, it was not about comparing the two animals. If you would actually READ what I wrote! My point that a tiger would go after a full grown bull gaur about as often as a lion go after a hippo. VERY rare cases.
THAT is my point and I am NOT wrong on it. Tigers do hunt gaur, in some regions rather frequently. But it's not full grown adult bulls. THAT is a MYTH! I showed a text document stating that they target the young gaurs. You showed a document stating they taken down 1,000 kg individuals. Neither document talks about full grown bulls. Your second document also stated "large prey like gaur and sambar". Sambar is not "large prey", it's the same size as wilderbeast and zebra. If that article puts gaurs and sambar in the same category it is likely young gaur and smaller cows. My documentation also stated that the tiger commonly targets prey over 176 kg (387 lbs). That's considered "large" prey. As such even a young gaur would still be considered as large prey. That coincides with the second documentation you posted.
I respect people's love for tigers. But do read what I write before telling me I'm wrong. I consider that a slap in the face when I write a lengthy post, put up documentation to support it, only to get a rather uncalled-for "you are wrong".
GAUR STATS
Body Length: 250-360 cm / 8.3-12 ft.
Shoulder Height: 170-220 cm / 5.6-7.2 ft. On average, males stand about 1.8 - 1.9 m at the shoulder, females about 20cm less.
Tail Length: 70-100 cm / 28-40 in.
Weight: Males often 1000 - 1500 kg / 2200 - 3300 lb, females 700 - 1000 kg / 1540 - 2200 lb. Weight vary between subspecies. Among the 3 subspecies, the South-east Asian gaur is the largest, and the Malayan gaur, or seladang, is the smallest. The male Indian gaurs average 1300 kg, and large individuals may exceed 1700 kg, or 1.7 tons; whereas a Malayan gaur usually weigh 1000 - 1300 kg. The largest of all gaur, the southeast Asian gaur, weigh about 1500 kg (1.5 tons) for an average male.
As you can see, size varies for this animal. When tiger fans talk about gaur killing they fail to mention that it's never animals over 1,000 lbs. That's the same as the Cape Buffalo that lions frequently target.
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Post by Panthera on Nov 5, 2008 0:20:54 GMT -5
I said that tigers target young gaurs and smaller adults. Which, in case you don't know gaurs, still qualify as large prey. Full grown gaur bulls weigh over 3,000 lbs. FACT. You showed me proof that tigers targeted gaurs at 1,000 kg. That's not a full grown bull. It's an adult, likely a cow, but not a full grown bull. As for the hippo comment, it was not about comparing the two animals. If you would actually READ what I wrote! My point that a tiger would go after a full grown bull gaur about as often as a lion go after a hippo. VERY rare cases. Uh gaur are large prey no doubt they're the largest wild cattle species in the world only rivaled by bison. And where do you keep on getting that 3000lb weight figure for gaur? Wikipedia? Here's a real good source: Wildcattleconservation which is hell of a lot more credible than wikipedia. You're wrong tigers do take gaur with a sort of regularity in Naggarhole: After Chital and Sambar gaur are the most taken prey in Nagarhole. THAT is my point and I am NOT wrong on it. Tigers do hunt gaur, in some regions rather frequently. But it's not full grown adult bulls. THAT is a MYTH! I showed a text document stating that they target the young gaurs. You showed a document stating they taken down 1,000 kg individuals. Neither document talks about full grown bulls. Your second document also stated "large prey like gaur and sambar". Sambar is not "large prey", it's the same size as wilderbeast and zebra. If that article puts gaurs and sambar in the same category it is likely young gaur and smaller cows. My documentation also stated that the tiger commonly targets prey over 176 kg (387 lbs). That's considered "large" prey. As such even a young gaur would still be considered as large prey. That coincides with the second documentation you posted. Uh yeah it is read the wild cattle conservation source. Clearly from that source bull gaurs were taken weather you except it or not. And sambar are relatively large prey compared to other prey items tigers have too choose from. I respect people's love for tigers. But do read what I write before telling me I'm wrong. I consider that a slap in the face when I write a lengthy post, put up documentation to support it, only to get a rather uncalled-for "you are wrong". I do apologize maybe we can have a civil debate. GAUR STATSBody Length: 250-360 cm / 8.3-12 ft. Shoulder Height: 170-220 cm / 5.6-7.2 ft. On average, males stand about 1.8 - 1.9 m at the shoulder, females about 20cm less. Tail Length: 70-100 cm / 28-40 in. Weight: Males often 1000 - 1500 kg / 2200 - 3300 lb, females 700 - 1000 kg / 1540 - 2200 lb. Weight vary between subspecies. Among the 3 subspecies, the South-east Asian gaur is the largest, and the Malayan gaur, or seladang, is the smallest. The male Indian gaurs average 1300 kg, and large individuals may exceed 1700 kg, or 1.7 tons; whereas a Malayan gaur usually weigh 1000 - 1300 kg. The largest of all gaur, the southeast Asian gaur, weigh about 1500 kg (1.5 tons) for an average male. As you can see, size varies for this animal. When tiger fans talk about gaur killing they fail to mention that it's never animals over 1,000 lbs. That's the same as the Cape Buffalo that lions frequently target. My previous source clearly contradicts your wikipedia source.
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Post by Lion Boss on Nov 5, 2008 9:40:14 GMT -5
Well, then there is a clear misconseption over the size of the Gaur. You see, in the lion vs tiger debate, the tiger side always brings up tigers hunting gaur and just how big it is. If the Gaur bulls are indeed only 1,000 kg, than there is no argument as the Cape Buffalo bulls are 900 kg.
Your sources do seem credible. And what they do prove is that tigers hunt gaurs that are within 1,000 kg. If that's a full grown bull, then it's a full grown bull. What I don't want to hear from the tiger side then is fairy tales that tigers kill 3,300 lb gaurs.
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tom
Kitten
Posts: 2
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Post by tom on Nov 6, 2008 8:36:46 GMT -5
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Post by Lion Boss on Nov 6, 2008 9:47:34 GMT -5
It happens. No doubt. Extremes always happen. But you do not know HOW it happened. A rhino is far too well armored for a tiger to utilize usual hunting methods. As such there would have to be other factors involved, such as an already established injury to the rhino. We simply do not know. The animal may have already been very sick and the tiger simply started feeding on it until it died. It happens with lions and elephants all the time.
I would not presume that it was a healthy rhino that the tiger overpowered. That's a very silly notion.
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